Welcome to Reality
I’d like to start this post with a welcome to those who have found me via The Global Atheist, and to pass my thanks to Doug for adding me to the aggregator. He seemed to find something interesting in my ramblings (and this is one of them), so I hope you do, too. Fingers crossed?
This weekend I attended the marriage of a friend and work colleague near the ancient and amazingly beautiful city of Bath, in south-western England. He is most definitely what many term a New Atheist and his lovely wife is most definitely an evangelical Christian. It makes for some interesting conversations and — as they are both mature, intelligent people — it will mean that they’re never stuck for conversation when a storm knocks out the power. It may also explain why the wedding took place at a beautiful old hotel in a picturesque rural setting, rather than in a church. I felt honoured to have been invited to the actual ceremony, rather than just the reception in the evening — though when invited, I did jokingly ask who had pulled out at the last minute…
Of course all the extended family were in attendance — many of whom were continental Europeans and antipodean, mostly from the bride’s side of the family — so many had at least crossed the Channel to get here, while others had crossed the equator. Parents, step-parents, siblings, cousins, aunts and uncles — the usual suspects. It made for a marvellously diverse experience with people from various walks of life all united for the common purpose of wishing the Bride and Groom the very best on their promises to each other and themselves. It was, of course, a beautiful day.
It was while sitting down to the post-wedding meal in the early afternoon that I struck up a conversation with a young couple to my left and an older man to my right and — as is probably natural at such occasions — the topic gradually turned to the greater meaning of the day’s ceremony and all three turned out to be remarkably naturalistic in their view of the event. The consensus between we four was that the underlying importance or motivation of the marriage ceremony is predominately to add some kind of “ultimate seal” to the event, to help the newly-obligated couple understand that they have made a promise to one another in the presence of their loved ones and that it’s not something to be taken lightly. I, like everyone else there, hope they have the maturity, flexibility and friendship to grow old together happily.
Later in the evening I was chatting with the same couple and we chatted more about secular world views, and they seemed interested in my views. We discussed the basics of secular humanism, secularism and the problem of religious privilege, soft/weak atheism and its contrast to strong/hard atheism (often characterised as intolerant of religion), the logical reasoning for admitting ignorance as opposed to declaring a position, and so on.
So it took me completely by surprise when he took out a notebook and asked me for a list of books that I’d recommend. After plenty of Guinness — and through the loud music and flashing lights filtering from the next room — this is what I came up with:
- The Demon Haunted World (UK|US) by Carl Sagan. The man is my hero, what can I say? The book presents his genuinely compassionate view of supernaturalism and what it’s meant to mankind.
- Anything and everything else by Carl Sagan — including Contact (UK|US) and especially the Cosmos (UK/PAL|US/NTSC) TV series. All his and Ann Druyan‘s works share the same compassionate, understanding view of the world.
- God is Not Great (UK|US) by Christopher Hitchens. He may be one of the founders of New Atheism as one of The Four Horseman, hold political views that swing as wildly as a large grandfather clock, and get himself beaten up for insulting thugs on their own turf (and here), but the man is undoubtedly one of the best thinkers of our time. That all of his opinions don’t agree with your own is a good thing — I don’t want to read someone whose words I agree from start to finish, as there’s no critical thinking in that.
- The God Delusion (UK|US) by Richard Dawkins. Many religious people consider this worse than Anton LaVey’s contentious work, The Satanic Bible, but I suspect that’s because the former uses provable facts to justify itself and makes absolutely no room for dogma.
- The Selfish Gene (UK|US) by Richard Dawkins. It may be a little hard going on the majority of us who are “bioscience-challenged,” but it is a classic piece of work that helps illustrate how un-you you actually are. Helps put things into perspective when your ego wants to insist that You Are Special — and perhaps you are… just like everyone else.
- The Culture series of novels by Iain M. Banks — I started with Look to Windward (UK|US). I’m only a few books into the series, but I find it fascinating.
- 1984 (UK|US) by George Orwell. I read this in the year it was set, at the age of 12, and it changed me forever.
- Watchmen (UK|US) by Alan Moore. It shows that even bad people have redeeming qualities and good people have damning qualities, stripping the infantile false dichotomy of Good and Evil People. But of course without such flawed thinking we can’t possibly justify war and capital punishment, so it remains as valid today as ever before.
- 50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God (UK|US) by Guy P. Harrison. I’m reading this at the moment, and it’s brilliant.
- The websites of the following organisations:
- There are also the podcasts and vodcasts listed via the link at the top of the page.
Last but not least, have a read of the Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles:
- We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
- We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
- We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
- We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
- We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
- We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
- We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
- We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
- We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
- We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
- We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
- We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
- We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
- We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
- We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
- We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
- We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
- We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
- We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
- We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
- We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.
I expect some atheists — and of course theists and deists who find their way here — will disagree with what I’ve said, both in this post and previous ones (please feel free to read through the archive), but I cannot reconcile the concept of belief, or even emphatic or ardent disbelief, with logical reality. While at university some of my peers jokingly nicknamed me Data — the android from Star Trek: The Next Generation — and I then (as now) considered it a sideways compliment, as the character was all about logic and intellectual honesty, and that series of Star Trek was the poster-child of and introduction to the concepts of humanism for millions of people. Sure, I have countless flaws in every aspect of my life, but I try to improve this blink of existence called my life and to help others (and nature) where I can. And I think that’s all any of us can really do.
But I do what I do for humanity, not to try to earn a place in an afterlife. That is, I think, what humanism is all about.
loading...

You are, of course, most welcome to your own opinions and beliefs — as I’ve made clear in much that I’ve written here and have shown by approving your post — though I do find it interesting that not only do you claim to be speaking for your god as well as present a falsely dichotomous requirement that they must convert one other or separate, but you also claim to speak for my friend. That last action would probably result in him providing you with a bloodied lip were you to say it in his presence — particularly as what you’ve attributed to him is something that I’m quite sure he’d find extremely offensive.
Thank you for participating. It’s comments such as yours that provide encouragement and confirmation to rationalists and free-thinkers.
Here we go again, another athiest believing in nothing higher than themselves.First off let me tell you that your friend that married the christian is secretly seeking GOD or else he would’nt have married her.In that situation either one of three things will happen. She will draw him to Christ,he will make her an athiest,or they will seperate. And just a clue, GOD never lost a soul He’s been after.If you wish to continue this convo feel free to email me at millenniumdisciple@gmail.com
I’d call that Mission Accomplished, thanks.
Thought provoking and some excellent recommendations too!
I’m hoping to read all of the Culture novels eventually. If I can find the time.
BTW, if you work where I think you do, you’re based half a mile from where I used to work. Small world!
That reminds me, I must get round to reading some Christopher Hitchens.
Yeah, the Culture novels are great. The Player of Games, and Excession are my personal favourites.
Not at all: it’s my sixth sense. I see dead people, too!
I used to work in one of the business in the Barns on the other side of the field to the north of you.
I am dissuadable and open to the evitable. It’s more a case of defaulting to immersion in the absence of some form of guidance to the contrary.
Some of them I wouldn’t recommend, but you don’t sound dissuadable.
OX10? If you’ve figured that out I’d imagine this thing is logging IP addresses
“Found god? I can’t even find my keys!” – Terry Pratchett
Your sixth sense might be slighly out. If you want to talk about office locations, perhaps it would be better to e-mail me?
I hate to admit it Jumile, but I think ghostwriter has a point.
Either party will try unwittingly influence the other.
But why on earth would the groom give somebody a bloody lip for suggesting he might believe in God some day???
Vanessa
Unwitting attempts at influence are going to be natural on all topics where both sides have strong feelings, particularly in a relationship — whether it be getting a dog or cat, having a baby or not, changing careers, etc. That doesn’t need to be a problem if both sides are mature enough to respect the other person’s right to their own opinions. It’s called compromise, understanding, maturity and empathy. It doesn’t mean that they’re automatically doomed as a couple, nor that he’s going to eventually “see the light.”
Why the bloodied lip? Because the groom is a New Atheist (with all that term entails) who has very strong opinions on the topic, and ghostwriter has — like so many with his or her particular perspective — decided they know the thoughts or motivations of the groom. Speaking for someone who you don’t even know, never mind speaking a polar opposite of their particular position on a topic, is both arrogant and ignorant.
Well as the groom in question I can assure you that I am not seeking God. Religion is the outdated need of a primitive mind that cannot understand the world around it. However some people feel the need to structure their existence with a Creator. Fine, let them get on with believing that, but be secular about it. Religion should have no rights in Law. Believe what you want to believe but if by practicing those beliefs you cause injury to others I will give you more than a metaphorical bloody lip.
My wife and I have had all the debates we’re ever going to have on religion and we’re both happy to be who we are and let the other be who they are.
But if, as you say, the Groom is a ‘New Atheist’ and is intolerant to all religions how on earth would he deal with say his children going to Sundayschool?
I’m afraid the Bride might end up with the bloodied lip from even mentioning God should they ever have kids. For some things there simply is no compromise available.
I agree with ghostwriter that from a ‘new atheist’ perspective he would do everything and anything to oppose his wife’s beliefs. For him there is no compromise or else he would have to rethink ‘new athiesm’ as his set of values and dilute his disregard for the tolerance of religion less he should not tolerate his wife and any views she has on the subject.
All in all a very difficult situation for the both of them.
Vanessa
You appear to have fixed in your head exactly what a New Atheist is, perhaps even manufacturing a sense of danger for his wife. That’s an unfair game to play, if that’s what you’re doing.
A New Atheist is a specific kind of thing in the same way that a Christian is. They’re not. We may categorise and pigeonhole one another to suit our own agenda and confirm our own suspicions (whether borne of education or ignorance), but the reality is that no two people — and no two life views — are the same. And goes a long way to explaining why there are thousands of sects and denominations of every belief system we’ve ever managed to conceive, whether it be theist or otherwise. Nobody has all the answers, though some of us are willing to admit it.
But rather than belabour the point, I’ll leave it to Padain to follow up to your reply.
Ok thanks Jumile,
But might I point out that my fixed head of what a ‘new atheist’ is comes from the web link you made with the text.
On the website you linked reads:
The New Atheists will not let us off the hook simply because we are not doctrinaire believers. They condemn not just belief in God but respect for belief in God. Religion is not only wrong; it’s evil. Now that the battle has been joined, there’s no excuse for shirking.
So when reading this the Groom would HAVE to consider his own wife evil and wrong and show no respect for her beliefs what so ever. They are on two sides of a battle.
That’s not quite correct. Using just what you’ve used in your last comment, the argument you’re making is flawed in that you are not making the distinction between the belief and the person. Assuming you are a Christian, your own religious instruction will have taught you to “Love the sinner but hate the sin.” Do you not see that this applies to much in life? It’s possible to consider a belief or world view wrong (or any number of emotive terms) while loving unconditionally the holder of that belief. Despite her beliefs.
Incidentally, a single reference — regardless of how good or authoritative it might be — is not sufficient to be the sole means to understand any topic of depth. If you really want to understand something, you need to refer to multiple sources from varied viewpoints (e.g. Conservapedia and the Vatican’s website may be two sources, but they’re two sides of the same coin). Even better if you include at least one completely opposing viewpoint as, despite the risk of blinkered propaganda, you may get a feel for the other side’s position.
You’re right religion is evil. But the people who believe in a god are not evil, unless they put into practice things that a logical and rational humanist/utilitarian would consider such.
Our children will be educated to think for themselves and make their own minds up. Indoctrinating them into Atheism would be just as evil as indoctrinating them into a religion. That’s the whole point about Atheism, it is rational and reasoned, not dogmatic.
I’m not even going to respect any idea that my wife is in ‘danger’ with a response.
While I agree that religion is evil and has no place in modern society. I must point out that just because I hold an opinion, I must necessarily share that opinion with my partner – I do as a matter of fact.
I can respect a person, but not their beliefs. It would appear that you are guilty of summing up a person by one facet of their character. X doesn’t believe in a god, therefore he is evil. I can assure you there are plenty of very evil people in the world who are very highly placed within churches – or ministries.
The core of religion is control of the flock – a very telling term that. Organised religion is about being lectured, indonctrinated, monitored, paying towards the upkeep of your oppressor and also being seen to be devout, not being devout, otherwise why would churches, mosques, temples exist? Why do I have to walk, drive, crawl, Yogic fly to a special building to pray when I can be equally devout on my living room floor?
As for children. The very concept in indoctrination from a young age – or as you term it, Sunday School, is abhorrent. They will believe in gods because they are told to, and in time many will stop believing but continue the weekly farce of arriving at church for fear of being shunned by the community and ‘damned’. Religion is not built on love and respect, but hatred and oppression.
A small point, made to Jumile elsewhere, but I’d include it here to offer a somewhat alternative opinion.
There are certainly cases where a person, because of their beliefs and subsequent actions based on them, I won’t afford automatic respect to. e.g. anti-homosexual activists.
I respect their right to an opinion (although “respect” is probably the wrong word here—”accept” might be more precise) but I won’t necessarily respect either the opinion nor the person who holds such an opinion if it leads to them performing actions that are substantially detrimental to others.
Just my 2p/2¢ (or whatever the going exchange rate for opinions is).
@ Jumile
Of course there is the distinction between person and belief, but the two are also intwined as presumably the Groom (Padain) has already hinted at through ‘debates’ with his wife on the topic.
Of course he dosen’t hate his wife, but there will always be friction between them that will never go away unless one of them folds. That is the point ghostwriter was trying to make.
The relationship is a dormant volcano waiting to go off the minute she decides to take the kids to church and he decides to tell them God doesn’t exist and religion is evil.
@ Bubbles
I do not believe that Christianity is bound by visiting a particular building or plot so feel free to pray in any way you blieve in in the commfort of your living room
You miss my point about choice Vanessa. I won’t tell my children that God doesn’t exist. I will present them with the evidence. I will teach them about religion and science. I will let them read the Bible, the Koran and the rest and at the same time I will teach them quantum mechanics and cosmology, evolution, chemistry, maths and all the science I know.
And they will decide for themselves.
I applaud your efforts in presenting choice but what say exactly does your wife have over their choice? You forgot to mention what part she will play in helping your children ‘decide for themselves’.
I don’t mean to pick on you about this, I’m just really interested in how any couple would go about their relationship and the raising of their children when both have very different views on a very important subject.
Vanessa
Neither my wife or I have any say in their choice. We will both educate them by giving them all the information. My wife will tell them why she believes in God and I will tell them why I don’t. Neither of us will state that there is or is not a God or a chocolate teapot or a flying spaghetti monster.